Wednesday, February 11, 2009

MKE Update

Small~Medium~
Large~

New geos and frame details. Feel free to ask any questions through the blog comments, we will respond as soon as possible.
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35 comments:

Naj said...

Nice! Is it ready for orders and how much its going for?

rotharpunc said...

I'm really upset by the drastic increase of the slope of the top tube on the 50cm size. Part of the appeal of this initial design were the classic looks. Due to this change I WILL NOT be buying one, which is quite disappointing as I was really excited with Milwaukee being my hometown and all. It looks like I will make do with my eighth inch scrambler from wheel and sprocket until I get around to buying a volume cutter or someone else makes a better FGFS bike.

Ben's Cycle said...

Sorry, we aren't quite ready to take pre-orders. The latest post shows some changes we are making. Once we get those protos in and verify the changes, then we will know the exact time frame for delivery and cost. Thanks

Ben's Cycle said...

rotharpunc~
Actually the 50cm size is primarily unchanged, it is now the medium size instead of the small.
We found that the 50cm, which has a 54cm C-T seat-tube was too big for a small size.
Now we made the small with a 46 C-C seat-tube (50cm C-T). Which has more standover.
We like "classic" looking frames as well; unfortunately with a 400mm (axle center to race) fork, it is very difficult to have horizontal top-tube on smaller sizes.
Thanks

Anonymous said...

I assume this redesign will push back the preorder date?

Ben's Cycle said...

Anon~
Only slightly, we are still shooting for a May delivery. Please bear with us, we want to make sure everything is spot on.

juanito said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ben's Cycle said...

Sorry juanito, like to keep these posts to the point.

juanito did have this to say...

rotharpunc, me thinks a few things:
1. You really aren't clued into the designs of the frames you referenced. Both of 'em have sloping top tubes, neither one is designed for this bikes sole purpose.
2. Given the intended use of this frameset, there will be by necessity very little classic styling cues. Look at the BMX rigs out there nowadays. SUPER low profile frames.

Aldone said...

I don't want a "classic look" on a freestyle frame.
If I want to ride a "classic look" I already have a late '80s handmade track frame.
What I'm looking for is a radical frame made for tricks, that's why I love this frame!

rotharpunc said...

juanito did have this to say...

rotharpunc, me thinks a few things:
1. You really aren't clued into the designs of the frames you referenced. Both of 'em have sloping top tubes, neither one is designed for this bikes sole purpose.
2. Given the intended use of this frameset, there will be by necessity very little classic styling cues. Look at the BMX rigs out there nowadays. SUPER low profile frames.

I already OWN a scrambler, and I don't want another of something that looks the same, as the sloping tube is what really bugs me. I have ridden and can get a Cutter cheap(at cost) so I would be willing to consider forgoing a bit in the way of aesthetics in that case.

If I wanted a crazy sloping top tube I would save myself some bother and just put a fixed hub on a BMX cruiser and call it a day, the bottom line is I simply don't like the look of anything but classics frames. I have a Scrambler, so what? I got it for under $100 new so I was willing to forgive that issue for a beater bike. If I'm going to drop decent $ on something, it better be both something that I like to ride and I also find visually pleasing.

That being said if the 50 doesn't end up hugely different I will still consider one just to support a company I value, but I'll stop in the shop to check it out first rather than preorder as I had planned.

Ben's Cycle said...

Not trying to pick on Bianchi by any means, in my head because a customer just asked about one... For example...A Bianchi Milano could be the perfect bike for one person and ludicrous for another.
That also means this bike may not be for everyone.
We offer a modest product line and the classic bike you are looking for may be in there.
Our Cream City is designed around a 20+ year old classic geometry.

oneeightyone said...

question about the small frame sizing... looking the new spec geometry it seems like the virtual TT is 58cm? or is it still a virtual TT of 60cm?

also, i'm 5'2" (i'm a short gal..) and currently ride 48cm track frame with a cockpit length of 61cm. would the small MKE frame be too large for a person my height if I ran a 45mm stem or larger?

Ben's Cycle said...

oneeightyone~
Great question. The new small geometry does have a virtual 58cm top-tube.

With a 45mm stem you would be 15mm further forward than your current ride.

Your torso position is the question. Are you running a drop stem now or a stem with rise? Do you have drop handlebars or riser bars? Basically, do you feel stretched out on your current bike or are you in a prone position?

This is one of the things we have been working on and it's a catch22. Like most small bikes there is a tendency for toe overlap. We tried to find a balance. Long enough for decent clearance, but not too long so people like yourself can fit it.

But I am curious how your current bike fits; if anything you could give us a call and we could talk more about it. A pic of your current bike would also help.

If anything, there are 35mm stems available; that in itself or in combination with a 5 degree sweep bar would nail it.

Here is our toll free number...1.888.275.5111
Thanks!

d'emploi said...

so i'm wondering if i'm crazy for wanting to continue riding my 650 w 24" bmx fork? what do you think this would do to the feel of the ride, besides the normal nervousness of a 650? would it ruin the intended outcome? do yall think it would be available as a frame w no fork?
many thanks

Ben's Cycle said...

This frame is designed to use a 400mm (axle center to race) fork with a 32mm rake.
I do not know the length/rake of the fork you are speaking of; but we don't recommend using any other fork on this frame than the one that is designed for it.
The forks will be sold separately; but the frames will only be sold as framesets (frame/fork).

Ben's Cycle said...

rotharpunc said - on the Trick Track Forum~

The largest size looks ok, but it is too big for me. As far as what I would have done differently on the smaller sizes, would be to shorten the seat stays slightly then increase the the angle of the seat tube by maybe 1.5- 2 degrees allowing the top tube to be moved on the seat tube up to parallel or near parallel to the ground. It looks like there is enough room to shorten the down and top tubes slightly to maintain the intended overall cockpit length and still have bar spin clearance and avoid most toe overlap, if not, then leave top and down tube lengths, and suggest a 0 degree setback post and shorty stem to keep cockpit length. I don't see a problem with this as it appears that they are already being marketed with such suggestions to maintain cockpit length. This slight angle should help with rear wheel based tricks and with proper set up I don't think it would hinder front wheel tricks.
...............................
bencycle says~

Now this is criticism! Thank you.

We are shortening the chainstays on futher models (one point we have heard from our riders).

But, the sloping top-tube is the product of a taller front end.
If the front end on the small is 49.5cm tall(400mm fork + 15mm for lower headset cup + 80mm HT) from center axle to center top tube and the seat-tube is 40cm tall(460mm - 60mm BB drop) from axle center to top; the top-tube has no choice but to slope down from the HT to the ST.

If you applied that rational to the medium size (saying the HT stays the same) you would have a level top-tube. However; larger main triangles necessitate slightly larger HT's, due to a need for structural(torsional, lateral, frame/fork splay etc.) integrity. Therefore, a slight rise in HT/TT center adds again a slight slope to the top-tube.
As you mentioned, sharpening the ST angle would decrease this slope on both small and medium sizes ever so slightly; though slope would still be present.
We are not looking to just create a beefy traditional track frameset. If that were the case we would have asked Waterford to merely add a gusset or two to our Cream City.
As I mentioned before; this bike is not going to be for everyone and there certainly is going to be one out there that fits your bill. But we are listening.

Thanks again, feel free to email us with more ideas, concerns, or questions.

Anonymous said...

had the pleasure of riding one of these on saturday and i am VERY IMPRESSED. it feels beefy, but not heavy. strong yet nimble and much more agile than other similar frames (ahem bmw) whose intention is to be pounded upon by grown ups acting like fools.

i really love it, although i must admit the top tube feels long (i rode the large) and is something one must get accustomed to, but helpful during flight. currently i'm riding a 56cm track frame with a 54cm (actual) TT and a 50mm stem and 2cm risers (74deg HT, 74.5deg ST), which is only a centimeter shy of being bar-spinnable, so your geometry is just so much more playful.

Im curious as to the comfort of the ride on long journeys, forgot to ask the riders of your bike, but what's been their reports? One of the things I enjoy the most about my current ride is being able to be on it for many hours, no complains. my seating position has my knees extended just right to create the minimum and most efficient pedaling rotation, which in fact sets me, a man of 6', at a rather tall position. so would i then benefit from riding the Medium with a long seat tube? because the 58.6 tt on the large, plus another 5cm of stem, just seems like it would put me at an odd position.

great work on this frame, cant wait to own one!

Ben's Cycle said...

Anon~
Thanks, glad to hear you've had a chance to ride one!

Just by your bikes description it sounds like you would be better on a medium. The medium's seat-tube is 50cm C-C, but 54cm C-T. So 2cm extra post won't hurt.
The TT can be tweaked a bit(TT length and knee position) with the use of a Thomson style non-set-back style post if needed and short to mid size stems for overall TT length.

You know, Eric Kremin or John Prolly would be great people to ask about their "long haul" impressions.
Eric commutes, messengers and plays polo on his, but is currently in Pensacola FL for a Tourney. I'll hit him up on a blog entry when he returns.
John commutes on his frame everyday and I'm sure will he will have something to add.

Alex said...

how much?

sam said...

Okay, so I'm about 6'1", maybe 6'2". My current cockpit is 59cm tt+70mm stem= 66cm cockpit length, although that is by no means perfect. I'm assuming I should get the large right, with 50mm-ish stem?

Ben's Cycle said...

Alex~
We are running another set of protos and will have a production quote shortly after.
We are anticipating retail to be around 450-490 for frame and fork with a choice of 3 colors. Stainless cog badge on the head tube and beer mug on the fork. Decals will be supplied with the frame but not applied.

Ben's Cycle said...

Sam~
You could go two directions with your sizing-

I have a Medium size built for myself (6'2" - 34" inseam) with a 50mm stem, overall cockpit is 65cm with about 6"(150mm) of seatpost out of the frame. I like the smaller feel of the frame and the slightly smaller cockpit than my regular ride is kind of nice.
Although, you could run a 80-90mm stem on a Medium and have your cockpit similar to your current ride.

Or

You could go with the Large
and have a 50ish stem which would nail your current bike and have about 4-5" (guess) of seatpost out of your frame.

But it all kind of depends where you like your top-tubes? If you feel having a higher standover(higher top-tube) is more advantageous to your riding style...I have heard from John Prolly that he likes having his top-tube higher so he can lock his legs around it or on either side of it...or...the top-tube height is not an element you rely on.

Something to think about; you have some options.

If you want anymore input, don't hesitate give us a call!

sam said...

Awesome, thanks!!
I'll probably just stop by the shop. Will you guys have some to floor models test before they are available for sale?

Anonymous said...

silly question, but what 3 colors are these frames coming out as?

Ben's Cycle said...

sam~

Once we get the new protos in, we'll build up one of each size for test-ride bikes. We'll keep you posted!

Ben's Cycle said...

Anon~

We have a meeting with our painter next week to discuss. This is what we have slated...

-Gloss "Fast" Black
-Prolly Purple
-Cool Grey

Any other solid paint color will have our standard charge of $50

For the fork...you get to choose either a

-Gloss Black
-Cool Grey
-Same as Frame Color


-Other fork colors (of choice, other than listed above) will have a slight up charge. This is what we are discussing in our paint meeting next week.

Anonymous said...

Hi. Right now I'm riding an old fixie convert and especially because I'm a big guy, among other issues, I'm pretty scrunched and it flexes a lot. While I love trying to do barspins and other fun stuff on my bike, I have to be comfortable riding because I'm cruising up and down the hills of Seattle everyday to get to work/grocery store/etc.

So here's my slightly unfair but honest question-
Why should I wait until May to get this new frame rather than get a Surly Steamroller or something else in this price-point right now? Both is not a financial option for me.

Thanks,
Chris

Anonymous said...

I'm really interested in getting one but I have a sizing question. I ride a medium affinity lo pro frame and I am around 5'9. Which size should I get? the small?

Anonymous said...

alright, i'm trying to figure out for sure what size i should go with. I need some closure please!

my current bike has 54cm TT and 80mm stem, giving a cockpit of 62cm. it also has a 54cm seat tube C-T (irrelevant??)

I'm assuming the small is my choice. 58cm TT plus 40mm stem equals 62cm.

I guess my confusion comes here----
I'm about 5'9"/10" ish. Inseam is about 32". So I think of myself as closer to a medium size person than a small. The seat tube on my bike is 54cm C-T which gives me an alright stand over. (maybe a half inch to an inch to spare.)

Also, i measured my top tube from the inside of the head tube to the inside of the seat tube. Is this right or should i have done center to center?

Is the small accurate for me??

thank you thank you, I know its a pain to deal with unknowledgeable people like myself,
Nick

Anonymous said...

Will it be
entirely necessary to pre order the frame, or will you have somewhat of a supply that we can buy once it is made available? Id like to see the production frma pics and feedback before I commit.

Thank you.

James

Ben's Cycle said...

Chris~
I completely understand the conundrum.
I wouldn't tell you not to buy any other bike, it's all personal preference - geometry, frame styling, practicality, etc.

If you are in dire need of a frame right now and interested in ours, we are selling the remainder of the prototypes. You can email through the contact section on our website to find out more details.

chris wielk said...

"Hi. Right now I'm riding an old fixie convert and especially because I'm a big guy, among other issues, I'm pretty scrunched and it flexes a lot. While I love trying to do barspins and other fun stuff on my bike, I have to be comfortable riding because I'm cruising up and down the hills of Seattle everyday to get to work/grocery store/etc.

So here's my slightly unfair but honest question-
Why should I wait until May to get this new frame rather than get a Surly Steamroller or something else in this price-point right now? Both is not a financial option for me.

Thanks,
Chris"

this bike will really give you the best of both worlds. for one, forget about flex, this is the stiffest steel frame i've ridden. it's super beefy and one of the most fun parts of riding it around is just hopping onto and off of every curb, really being able to smash it around without worry about it.

i've been commuting on my medium prototype here in nyc for a little over a week now, about 5 miles each way, and i love it. as long as you size it right (ie cockpit length) it will fit you comfortably. the handling is nice and tight, but theres no toe overlap with the wheel forward (and barely any for your barspins). i think it's a great all around bike, and with some larger tires it's a great all weather bike too. there's not really much to say as far as a trick bike, it's hands down the best i've ridden, ranging from bastardized track and conversions, to other fixed gears made with tricks in mind.

what makes it better than a surly? just ask prolly...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/2804810686_495881b9b7.jpg

Ben's Cycle said...

Anon~
We would need a little more info on your current bike to make sure your
fit properly.
Feel free to send a email through the "contact us" section on our website.

http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=contact_us

Ben's Cycle said...

Nick~
No problem at all, that's why we're here.
Your TT should have been measured C-C, but with the 54cm you gave me; I will estimate the TT C-C at 56cm. With that said, Your cockpit would be about 64cm.
The new medium geo (which will be posted shortly) has a 59.5cm TT, instead of a 60.5.
So 59.5cm + a 50mm stem gets you near or at your current cockpit and at 54cm C-T seat-tube the Medium looks like the one.
Thanks!

Ben's Cycle said...

James~
We should have enough to make everyone happy, but I can't guarantee.

Shouldn't be a problem seeing production pics and feedback, since we are getting another batch of prototypes before we release production. We will have detailed photos available at that time + all the rider feedback on Trick Track Forum and various rider blogs.

If your worried about slanted feedback from the riders...I wouldn't. John, Tony, Chris and Nate have been so critical and honest during this project and I think it's obvious with the updated geometry how hard we've all worked to get this dialed.

Now riding one for yourself, that's a different story; you'll have to wait for the production release or hunt one of those guys down.